Random Thoughts CSI:NY - Spoilers at bottom for s5

[kinkapoodles]

Like my icon implies, I gotta ask. Why do people assume Danny loves Lindsay?? Hell, why do people assume that he EVER loved her? *headdesk*

He's never said he does. He's never acted like he does. He never told her either time she's mentioned loving him. So, why in the hell would anybody assume Danny loves her and should tell her he slept with Rikki and grovel to win her back?

That's just freakin' insane AND it boggles my mind.

As I said in a post on TalkCSI, I've been spot on so far since Snow Day aired about the status of the DL mess. I have episode reviews in my journal where I called a bunch of things correctly. Here's a rundown of some of them.

1. Love Run Cold - Lindsay stands Danny up and NEVER gives him an explanation. When confronted in the hall later and Danny uses that dreaded chemistry line Lindsay jumps straight to 'relationship' telling Danny she can't have a relationship with him and Danny is shocked and informs her that he was only talking about dinner, drinks, and a few laughs (exactly what he got plus sex in Snow Day). Which implies Danny never intended to date Lindsay.

2. Snow Day - Sex on the pool table was a one night stand. It was obvious Danny never intended to have Lindsay in his bed since he went to the trouble of bringing pillows and a blanket to the pool table. *snort* Lindsay showed her clinginess again by telling Danny she had a dream he'd left. Loved his comeback and I don't think it was as much of a joke as he tried to make it look (Where would I go, it's my apartment.) I would take that as an insult but then again, I wouldn't be clingy like that.

3. Season 4 starts - Danny and Lindsay show absolutely NO signs of being together. In fact, Danny looked and acted annoyed with her throughout much of the season.

4. Boo - Shippy DL scenes were cut. Another indicator TPTB were shifting away from whatever they started with DL. And for the love of God, Danny did NOT call Lindsay 'honey'..not once. He also never rubbed or shoulder or anything of that nature.

5. Child's Play - Danny NEVER once went to Lindsay for comfort after Ruben died and never did.

6. All in the Family - Lindsay went to Flack about Danny not showing up to work. She didn't make any attempt to try to find him herself. Also, neither Flack nor Danny made any attempt to let her know when things were resolved. Danny called Rikki 'sweetheart' and it was so sweet and genuine. What's he ever called Lindsay besides 'Montana'? *rolls eyes*

7. Right Next Door - If you want further proof that sex on the pool table was just a one night stand, just take a look at this episode. The scene between Danny and Rikki was beautifully done and it showed just how much Danny cares for Rikki. It was sweet and tender AND the added bonus of Rikki coming out of Danny's bedroom wearing his shirt. Hmmm...Danny wanted Rikki in his bed but not Lindsay...what does that tell you? Also, Lindsay calling him - Danny had every right to tell Lindsay he was running errands that morning. He had no obligation to say: Sorry Lindsay but I'm spending the morning in bed with Rikki and I'm making her breakfast. *it would have been priceless though* Danny and Lindsay weren't together therefore he doesn't have to tell Lindsay squat. Was this the 'monologue of doom' episode? By the expression on his face, Danny clearly had NO idea that Lindsay thought of herself as his girlfriend or that she was in love with him.

8. Like Water For Murder - (I think it was this episode) Where Danny forgot Lindsay's birthday. I had to LMAO when he didn't really seem all that concerned about it. Why would he if he didn't think they were dating? It was a little lame for Danny to ask Lindsay over to watch Jaws. It was clear he was just trying to patch their friendship up. This is also the episode where Lindsay told Mac it was a stupid mistake to get involved with a co-worker.

9. Personal Foul - Danny/Flack at the basketball game instead of the original spoilers showing Danny and Lindsay. More proof DL never was. I'm convinced, just like others, that the DR and DL scenes were switched but either way, it doesn't really matter since Danny was visibly upset once Rikki said she was moving. For the record, Danny saying that it was a mistake was referring to them using sex to help with the pain. He never said they were a mistake. The phone call to Lindsay was lame but since you can plainly see the sugar bowl was blotted out, that shows me that he only called Lindsay because he was upset that Rikki left and he just wanted somebody else to ease his pain.

10. Spoilers for season 5 - The hint of a montage tells me DL is over. Like others have said, montages usually come at the end of things, mainly relationships. Rikki returning for as many as four episodes along with another guy catching Lindsay's eye. She said she needed to move on and it looks like she will. Danny taking a vacation could very well be to spend time with Rikki. I seriously doubt he's going away with Lindsay. The spoilers did say things would happen with Danny that didn't involve Lindsay.

Well, that's all I can think of right now. My brain is now mush.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I think people seeing what they want goes both ways. Both D/L fans and non D/L fans interpret things to suit their preferences. In that respect the writers have been clever in toying with both sides, they have been amiguous enough that it can be interpreted whichever way you prefer. I agree that D/L weren't likely in a committed relationship but I very much doubt they only had sex once on a pool table. The only scene I saw where Danny was a little 'distant' was in The Deep when she was telling him how brave he was, I took his reaction as embarassment, Danny doesn't take compliments well I don't think. While his words in LRC could be taken literally in that he didn't want anything serious, Danny's natural reaction to any form of rejection from Lindsay has always been to pull back. Take his frequent requests that she eat with him. In City of Dolls, he asked if she was hungry, it was obvious he wanted to spend time with her outside of the case but when she said she needed to get back to the lab he hid his reaction by doing the whole 'yeah, yeah, me too' thing. That's classic man speak for covering up rejection imo, that's also how I saw his whole 'I just want a few laughs' etc in LRC.

Carmine talked about him viewing Danny's acts in SOOH as being that of a friend, his comments were in context of Lindsay not having spoken to him and how Carmine felt Danny's actions were OOC unless it was as a friend. I agree with him there, I can't see Danny chasing across country when she'd given him nothing and I actually struggled with that whole scene because of that. But, while his actions were prompted by friendship, he certainly didn't pull away as you said. In fact he leaned in to kiss her and only pulled back, as did she when the photographers came in.

I also didn't hear him call her 'honey' in Boo. But it did look as though he reached out and touched her when she opened the suitcase to find the remains of the child, most probably in the form of a back rub (although admittedly out of shot).

I don't think it strange that people saw them as dating, but I do think it strange that people think they only had a one night stand. There was nothing in canon to prove that but the undertone of their relationship was romantic and you can't ignore (although aparently you can) that the writers themselves stated they were 'together' in some way, shape or form. I agree there was nothing to indicate love, but I think there was a relationship there. I could be wrong, the writers could indicate in S5 that it was all in Lindsay's imagination, but I don't think so. I really can't see her being somone who puts her feelings 'out there' as she did in RND if there had been no encouragement whatsoever from Danny. If it had just been a one time on the pool table kind of a deal then surely they would have talked about it, surely he would have said 'I don't want this' instead of 'I'm glad this happened'. I just can't see Lindsay reacting the way she did in RND if there had been no relationship there. Danny also admitted to pushing her away and his 'I miss you' in PF didn't come across as just a friendship thing.

As for Danny and Rikki. All I saw was desperation in their interaction, an attempt to deal with the pain. There was no romantic chemistry there for me. We don't know enough about Rikki to gauge whether they would be a good match, but my instincts tell me they won't be. I've seen people post on fan sites that they see romance and love in the D/R interactions, that boggles MY mind as much as the D/L fluff obviously boggles yours. I don't blame Danny for turning to Rikki intimately to deal with his grief but I do think it was selfish. Rikki showed a maturity in those interactions that for me highlighted just how screwed up Danny was. She lost a child, he felt guilty. She was lonely, he wanted to ease his own pain by attempting to ease hers. There's nothing romantic in that, it was raw, pain induced sex, at least that's how I saw it.

[kinkapoodles.livejournal.com]

I agree with some of your points as I see you have agreed with some of mine but I'll never see the sex on the pool table as anything more than a one night stand unless one of them acknowledges that it was more. While I know tptb said they were supposedly in a relationship, I just didn't see it and from Danny's actions (having two chances to tell Lindsay he loved her too) and expressions (during the monologue of doom), I'd say he never did. He was totally caught off guard with that and if they were truly in a relationship, wouldn't he have reassured her during that monologue?

I take the words of tptb with a grain of salt. They tend to change their minds sometimes from the time they open their mouths until the time the episodes actually air. It's possible they could have changed their minds about DL being in a relationship or love or anything else they've said (I can't keep most of it straight). It's no different than saying the DL fans would be pleased by the end of the season and from what I've seen on message boards, most (not all) did not seem pleased.

Also, it's a shame that you had such a well, thought out post and are one of the few that can actually back up their statements with more than 'they should be together' replies, but then posted it anonymously.

[(Anonymous)]

Sorry, I didn't post anonymously intentionally, I just don't have an LJ account, although I may get around to getting one soon. I'm Jenny btw.

You're right about tptb and they probably have changed their minds countless times, bearing in mind how so many spoilers have not appeared on screen. I can accept it being a one night stand but tptb haven't really shown that, admittedly they haven't really shown a relationship either, that's what's so confusing. For me it's bad storytelling to have two primary characters doing the dirty and not following it up in any way. Personally I think it probably IS because they keep changing the direction of the relationship, either that or they just want to draw out the drama even more.

As for Danny telling Lindsay he loves her, bearing in mind what he'd just been doing with Rikki that would have been a little ridiculous, that's not to say he doesn't love her. I'm not saying I think Danny DOES love Lindsay but I certainly haven't seen him as easily irritated or annoyed with her as some people have seen. I think he does have feelings for her, it may be that she turned out 'not to be who he thought she was' and he doesn't want a relationship with her, or it may be that he wants to be with her but for whatever reason he was thrown by Ruben's death and turned away from her. It's clear to me that they were in a 'relationship' but that it could have been anything from a friends with benefits thing to a relatively new romantic pairing. It wasn't the deep, both in love thing that some fans thought but I struggle to see it as nothing. Both Flack and Mac hinted at their relationship, Mac in AitF when it was clear he knew they spent a lot of time together re. his 'don't catch it' comment, as was Flack's 'you should piss Monroe off more often' comment, implying that if he hadn't pissed her off she would be at the game with him, then Mac's reaction to Lindsay's 'I shouldn't have gotten involved with a co-worker' comment. It all led me to believe that they spent a lot of time together outside of work and then the fact that Danny obviously didn't spend any time with her after Ruben's death is what prompted her monologue. I get that if you don't like Lindsay it was a 'monologue of doom' and I can understand how it came across as her being selfish. I won't deny that she can come across that way, but I think Danny can be equally selfish. I like them both so rather than feel irritated by their 'selfish' actions I just want to try and understand them a little more and hope to see them working through it, either together or not. I see Lindsay's monologue as stemming from her own insecurities, I also suspect she invested a lot of her emotional needs in Danny post her own drama, which is why she was so hurt by her actions, thus she wasn't able to see past that and reach him in the way that he needed.

As for Rikki, I liked her but her acceptance of Danny and her attempt at reassuring and understanding him just seemed to highlight how selfish he was being. Again, I'm not calling him on that because I do think his actions were understandable under the circumstances. I know a lot of people would like to see Danny and Rikki getting together, I'm just not sure I could stomach it though. If tptb showed D/L weren't in a relationship of any sort other than friendship and they were both clear on that, than I'd say D/R are fair game. But, I think at the very least Danny is possibly guilty of misleading Lindsay, if not out and out cheating. I'm reserving judgement at the moment on that.

[(Anonymous)]

Lindsay isn't guilty of misleading Danny by assuming she's his girlfriend after one time of sex and never clearing things up before treating him like dirt? LOL

>>> I know a lot of people would like to see Danny and Rikki getting together, I'm just not sure I could stomach it though.

Could have saved yourself a lot of typing by posting just that.

[(Anonymous)]

Yet then it wouldn't be much of a discussion would it? I think it's a shame that someone can't present an opposing view without people replying with such sarcastic undertones.

Also, my dislike of D/R (although I DO like Rikki) directly comes from a sense that Danny cheated on Lindsay. I don't know for certain that he did and if it turns out he didn't then my outlook will be slightly different, hence my reserving final judgement for later. I'll still prefer D/L but that's life.

Jenny

[(Anonymous)]

You're that D/L shipper JellyBelly from the talkcsi board. What you wrote are the same things she wrote there. She was warned by an admin for being disrespectful, bashing other people's ships. It is two-faced you're huffy about sarcastic replies to your posts when you have done worse to other people.

[(Anonymous)]

Asking her to have a meal with him TWICE in TWO SEASONS is hardly frequent.

Who's to say love can't grow between Danny and Rikki eventually? I didn't realize grief stuck around forever and stopped someone from loving another for eternity!

Explain to me why: "I don't blame Danny for turning to Rikki intimately to deal with is grief but I do think it was selfish."? How was it selfish? He wasn't taking advantage of Rikki, she wanted it too. It comforted them both. Was it selfish because he didn't think of Lindsay?

"Rikki showed a maturity in those interactions that for me highlighted just how screwed up Danny was."

It takes TWO to tango like Danny and Rikki have. Feelings, on the other hand, can be unrequited. Lindsay said to Danny she's in love with him but he never said it in return.

[(Anonymous)]

Ha ha, she will never answer you. They don't have a logical answer that will supports D/L. I read their comments in Ausiello's posts. When people asked the same questions there, no D/L shippers answered them. They only whine whine whine and complain for D/L to be exact like what they want. They are ruining enjoyment of CSI: NY for people. My friends won't watch it any more because D/L turned them off. I hope D/L will end in season 5!

[(Anonymous)]

Actually I'm more than happy to answer. I believe Danny was selfish because he was seeking redemption without a thought for how it may affect Rikki in the long term. She voiced her feelings, his response was 'I don't care'. She knew it was a bad idea them sleeping together because of their shared grief. She was mature in her dealings with Danny because she didn't blame him, she understood that what happened to Ruben was an accident. Yet Danny turned to her for his own needs, a need for Rikki to forgive him. There's nothing wrong with that if no-one else gets hurt by his actions, but they did. While people here are stating quite clearly they believe D/L only had a one night stand and until it is proven otherwise they will stick with that belief, hence they don't look on Danny as having cheated. I, on the other hand believe that D/L was more than a one night stand (although exactly how much more I don't know) so have the opposing view that he did cheat (until/unless it is proven otherwise). That's my right to hold that view and does not make me illogical, stupid, or a whiner.

You say your friends don't watch because of D/L, they can't like the show that much anyway because really, D/L are not that big a part of it. Likewise, I think the people who only watched because of D/L and have now stopped will not be missed, it's a crime show first and foremost.

Why, why, why can't we debate some of these issues without insulting each other? That's all I wanted when I posted my thoughts on 1csimfan's original post. Yet again, it has turned into a situation where people who don't agree throw accusations around and lump all D/L fans (although I consider myself a 'liker' rather than a fan/shipper) into the same teenage fantasist category. It's a real shame that you've accused me of being illogical yet have failed to present any coherent argument yourself. People in glass houses, and all that. Jenny

[(Anonymous)]

Jumping to conclusions much? The anonymous before you was simply stating their opinion about D/L shippers who commented on Ausiello's posts at EW. They never said you were illogical, stupid or a whiner. If you have the right to state your opinion, why can't someone else do the same?

I saw the other anonymous comment claiming you to be a D/L shipper called JellyBelly from Talkcsi forums. I browsed through the posts there and that anonymous was right. What you posted here are the same statements JellyBelly posted there. You were warned twice for being disrespectful and hypocritical of other people's opinions. So it's OK for for you to bash Mac/Stella and other ships but not OK for others to bash D/L?

GTFO your high horse.

[(Anonymous)]

Ha ha, I told you she won't answer you! She justified her opinion but didn't answer your first question. That is the one none of them answer. My answer is yes, love can grow between Danny and Rikki! That's why they never answer it. They know it is really possible. They have no excuse why it can't.

(1csimfan, I've lurked on your journal for awhile. Your posts about D/L are so funny and true! They entertain me on early shifts and keep me awake like now, thank god. I also lurk at the talkcsi board. I'm thinking of joining it now.)

[(Anonymous)]

What the hell is your problem? I answered the question that I saw. Was I asked if love can grow between D/R? I must have missed that. To answer THAT question if you're so desperate for me to then yes, of course it can. I'm not talking about the possibilities for the future. I'm talking about what I have seen on screen. I haven't seen love. If the writers want to take it there then they will.

I think I'm finally coming to the conclusion that there is very little chance of having a sensible discussion in this fandom. I came here hoping that the CSIfiles shit wouldn't follow, obviously I was wrong. The immaturity is unbelievable.

[1perfectanomaly.livejournal.com]

How can you expect people to ignore your comments at TalkCSI when you're blatantly being hypocritical in your posts on this journal? A journal of another member of TalkCSI that is read by more members of TalkCSI.

You're chastising people for being disrespectful and insulting when you've been called on that same behavior more than once on TalkCSI. To think people would just ignore this and then call them "immature" because they didn't ignore it is ridiculous. All you're doing is refusing to take responsibility for your own behavior by throwing things back on everyone else.